Back to Starter!!!!!

[Kim K Kaiser]

big sigh!!!  well, i found the bleeders weren't  quite tight enough, so the last couple of runs through town i have and no brake leaks,  brakes feel ok, may have been i was so used to bad ones, didnt know what a good push was,, ANYWAY,, 

the starter....

since i replaced the starter back in november, i had the ignition switch go out,(wiring fried)  so for most of the last month, i have used the hot wire method.  seemed to do ok, just cant do it and go anywhere.  

i did notice when i used a generic 3 prong starter from parts store, i left it hooked up over night.  not on, and not in the accessory position,  the next day, the battery was dead.  charged and it started right up

So i just figured, until I get the replacement that fit with the 4 prongs, i would just hot wire, and undo the black post at night or when not in use.

so yesterday, i got all the parts in and hooked up the starter, and bammm,, fired right up,  took my rides, tested brakes,,,etc... came home parked it for an hour or two,, went back to go for another short ride, and i got that dreaded,, hard to turn over sound.  but it would turn over on about the third slow clunk and start.,, went for my ride, came back, parked and shut down for the night,, un did the black at battery.  

this morning, after checking for brake leaks, hooked it up, and it started right up like one would expect.  went for about a 20minute ride.,, came home,, went in side for about 20 minutes, came back out, and got that slow slow turn over.. it would nt start so i turned it off,, checked the battery, had appropriate cold charge volts,  waited about 45 more minutes. went out, tried it again,  tightened down the black,, got two slow turns and then it started,,took it for a ride,,, came back, test battery with engine on, and was well up in the 14's so from what i have read, it was doing what it was supposed to,

now I dont have ANY idea what to do now,  I'm fearful of turning off somewhere as it may not start.  but, i have found that after a long time, hours or so, and the battery undone, i can go out and it will do fine.  

i have been using gunk remover, and shooting water under engine cleaning the underside and engine over the last two weeks when i did nt have a working something to do on the car.  maybe some old wiring is bad? i just dont know,,could it be a fuse?  grounds are all there and tight, i mean if the starter is a non working part once the car is started, what else could cause this sort of hot start issue,, battery???  it works good cold, but not when its been on an running and then to follow up with a start.

I know yall are getting sick of my questions, but i have no were else to turn, you tube only covers so much and so much is on modern stuff...

[Kim K Kaiser]

hear you loud an clear,,, however,, i have at the very minimum learned a whole bunch of new stuff,, like heat soak (read Jasons article link)  and all the other things i did to try to figure this out, so it wasnt a loss from my POV at all, i know it seems a lost cause from =y'alls POV, but it has helped me immensely

[2o93f8rdftyzj]

I love the fact you have so much patience to work your way through the dramas you've had.

I threw all the toys out of the cot this morning when a self propelled mower broke a cable and I had to push the bloody thing to finish a job.(lucky for me, I had spare at home and sorted it)

[Jason Edge]

Tony, the timing marks on a 1965/66 are almost 90 degrees off from a 1963/64 Engine. There is NO WAY an engine is even going to run and drive if you stick a 65/66 balancer on a 63/64 engine and set timing to marks on cover! See picture of 63/64 cover and 65/66 cover below.
Some times you just have to use common sense.

[Jason Edge]

ps. I agree about vapor lock as a viable issue and posted it way up in one of my early replies. Anything that can affect running when the engine and attached components (i.e. starter) are heated to running temps should be considered. Again, I would now but curious what happens when engine is turned off hot, and a jump starter is attached to starter. Just wondering if the additional amperage would compensate for heat soak & low current battery. I guess it is experience, but we have been discussing this for what seems like days, but I would have scoured every wire, checked every connection, tested voltage & amperage at cold start & hot start, and tried the jump box almost immediately, checked the fuel in the glass fuel filter bowl, if this happened on my 64.  Suggesting things like changing timing on an engine that is otherwise running good is reaching to say the least. I always cringe when someone suggests changing timing. It is always to compensate for some other issue that needs to be addressed even if it partially alleviate other issue.
The biggest, baddest and worst offense is when timing is advanced way out there to compensate for a busted,  non-working distributor vacuum advance. So Yay!!! the car idles, and seems to have power a hi vacuum situations, but you just threw the entire advance curve off and you have just added 5, 10 or whatever degrees of advance to the hi RPM curve the centrifugal advance will add... and guess what, the engine and performance suffers overall. Bottom line for me if all wiring and cables are good, and knowing these cars do not have starter heat soak issues, I would replace starter/solenoid...period, and check battery and test if needed. If the jump starter kicks it right off when, then your battery is weak and needs to be replaced.

[Jason Edge]

Kim indicated he does not have an Edelbrock. He is running a Rochester which does not use the metal shim with the Carter AFB.

[3n49omug8n28i]

Jason I am the one who keeps saying it's probably timing. I never suggested timing because I thought the harmonic balance was wrong, I thought the car was over heating or to leave it in the suggested position to fix an unknown problem. It was simply a diagnostic tool to see the cars reaction to the change. This will not effect the timing curve of vacuum or mechanical advances at as they determined by engine vacuum and rpm. To much initial timing will cause a hot start issue. We are dealing with a gentleman who cannot tell the difference from a lifter tick to an exhaust leak. My thoughts are he just may have it WRONG. Now he's confirmed that the car will start when warmed up with the initial timing retarded. Things that make you go hmmmm? If the timing did not effect change to the warm engine starting problem then my opinion is that the starter is bad. The starter may still be bad but he's now stating that it will start easily when warm with the initial timing retarded. Again this is just a diagnostic test and NOT a fix. The chances of a factory setup having heat soak, in the winter especially, is about nil if everything is in proper working order. 

[Jason Edge]

Clovis, adjusting the engine timing WILL affect the timing curve. Total ignition advance is engine advance + vacuum advance + centrifugal advance. Shifting the engine advance absolutely affects the final total ignition advance. Set ignition advance to 0 degrees BDTC and you move the entire curve in 5 degrees, set ignition timing to 10 degrees Advance and you move the entire curve out 5 degrees.  Again, when you try to shift timing from factory spec to alleviate a symptom, you are basically masking another problem.
Here's an example. If you have a 63 390 and running at a high RPM over the max 2000 rpm for centrifugal advance, it is adding up to 10 degrees advance per specs. Add that to the factory 5 degree advance, and assume the high rpm is a low vacuum situation, for a total of 15 degrees ignition advance. Now set the engine advance to 10 degrees. You have now changed the total engine ignition advance to 20 degrees. It is simple math. Those centrifugal weights do not care what you have set the engine advance, and they are still going to swing out the same amount and increase ignition advance by the same amount. Likewise the vacuum advance will do it's thing regardless of where you point the engine timing marks.
As noted in the Help Page link on vacuum advance, John Washburn's 2 part look at this subject in the Jan & Feb 2014 Self-Starter is an excellent read and encourage anyone interested in the subject to check it out. I have also posted the vacuum and centrifugal advance specs from both the 63 & 64 Shop Manuals and posted in that Help Page entry.

[3n49omug8n28i]

When we say timing curve I think of the actual grafted curve. That curve is not adjustable by changing the initial timing, the only way to adjust the curve is to change the springs on the weights or the vacuum advance can. Yes total timing at any given point on the curve will be changed but not the actual curve itself. This is the problem sometimes trying to explain things and fix a problem over the Internet. I understand what your saying now, hopefully my point is clearer. No offence to Kim but he is not at a level where things are easily explained to him that he understands. So without getting into a big explanation to him on why I suggested he try retarding to ignition I just said to try it. If you said you set the timing at 5 degrees that would be that for me but when Kim says its 5 degrees well I'm not sure. Again Kim this is no disrespect to your ability and it's great that you are learning and trying. 

[3n49omug8n28i]

In my work environment when I think of timing curves I think of algorithms that actually change the curve and not just when the curve is happening. 

[Jason Edge]

Overall ignition curve is shifted inward or outward regardless of slope of  curve.  That IS a change and WILL affect engine performance.    

[Kim K Kaiser]

None taken

[Kim K Kaiser]

None taken