alt or battery

[Kim K Kaiser]

having just done the ac system,

seems my batter y or alternator may be going out,, 

at off    battery is at about 11.8   while running, doesnt get to about but 12.5 on the meter.  11.8 doesnt seem to give it enought juice to start, so it just cliccks,, i put a battery booster on , fires right up,,

it doesnt get to the 14.9 or so while engine is on.  so, hte question is, is it batter or alternator?

battery is about 2.5 years old, if that matters.

secondly,  would the additionl of the compressor belt to the engine have any effect on the alternator ? would that addition to the spinning have any effects on any other systems.  I havent run the ac but once, since i completed it, and just enought to see if it was cold air,, its only about 45 here for a high right now.

just wondering if there would be any addiitonal drain on the alternator now that ac is hooked up.

[Jason Edge]

Kim, the Alternator to Voltage Regulator Harness shipped out Priority today. Hopefully you will have it by mid week. It includes one end of the GEN indicator fuse connector, and I included the 6A fuse, and cut out the other end of the fuse connector with a good length of pigtail wire from the Forward Lamp Harness which it feeds into. 

[Kim K Kaiser]

Now how did i know you would chime in here!  Lol.  All i kno is he was putting the point of that light stick into each of those paddle holes of the harness plug,  he would wiggle it,  it would either stay on, blink or not come on.   I tried to figure it out but it was going right by me.   Again, we got the old alt to chrge the battery.  But by his description,   it was like a loose light bulb.   You know, you can tap it, and it wil flicker on and off because of a loose connection.  But that that connection wasnt repairable in the plug harness end, just old an worn

  I m guessing his description was to simplify for me.   He said there were some plug modificatiins to ignition wires and some such thing on a internal vr alt.He had lost me by then.  

[Jason Edge]

Mark, I will hand it to you, you must have a much greater ability to read and understand what Kim has written than me! When I read "i did make have a wtf moment,(as is typical in my repairs) and put that big black on with the small black wire,, when i touched the black battery pole to batttery, lots of smoke and popping,, it seemed to kinda melt the rubber around the wire at the positive battery pole,", I really have no clue what wires he is talking about or what was touched. 
Electricity will indeed take the shortest path to ground ... that is why we have grounding rods on house wiring to take lightening strikes away from the house. In essence this is basicly what a short circuit is... electricity finding an unexpected or unintended path back to ground. 
Electricity will flow through a conductor (the wire) just as water does thru a hose pipe, with restriction (impedance measured in ohms), pressure (measured in voltage) and volume (measured in amperage).  Normally in a car or any other electrical system, electricity will travel across a load (e.g. headlight, radio, power window motor, etc) which will consume a specific amount of power (amps x volts / watts) as needed by the device with the load. With a direct short, the direct ground to hot connection creates a huge current flow with excessive heat, melting, popping, and eventually fire.  Whatever is on this shorted line is apt to get literally fried! 
Again, I do not understand exacty which wires Kim shorted out, but would not rule anything out.  One thing about it, when you are working the alternator, battery and voltage regulator, you are not working with the fuse protected circuits like the ones you have under the dash and the #1 Rule when replacing an Alternator is DISCONNECT THE BATTERY! 

[Jason Edge]

I never indicated he damaged the alternator. I stated I have no clue. My suggestion at this point with the haphazard method of just connecting things and not looking at the wiring schematics to understand what connects to what was to go to a mechanic and give them the shop manual.  Not trying to pick at Kim but not disconnecting the battery or knowing the 3 wires that connect to the BAT side of the alternator is very basic stuff and at this point I am 3 steps past trying to diagnose stuff here online and instead suggest that he takes this to a mechanic.

This should have been 2 basic steps:
1. Check all connections to make sure they are tight ---> Was not done
2. test battery, alternator, voltage regulator --> has been unclear what has or has not been done.
What we do have are 5 pages of suggestions that have led to melted wires, sparks flying and crumbling connectors, and belabored interpretations of what is actually going on. 
 What I have tried not to do is drill down into the minute details of the voltage regulator and charging system as it is more than one generally needs to know when you just need to tighten up some wiring or replace one of the components.  For those that want further education on voltage regulators, and charging in general, Art Cutler's "The ABC's of charging" in the September Cadillac LaSalle Club Self-Starter was a good read for new students or as a refresher.

[Kim K Kaiser]

ok,  I know this topic has gotten stale, but i thought i would clarify the events that led to the big fireworks under the hood,

I have learned from prior failures to pull the negative ground on the battery, which i did before working the repair,

i pulled the wires off of the alt. thinking i would remember the order and placement.

Now, on my orignial alternator, the little plug with two paddles sits at the bottom of the alt, like 6:00 on a clock, the replacement alt, had the plug on the 3:oo position. 

that aside for now,

with the black negative battery wire off.  i begain reattaching the wires to the back. The harness on my car  (not including the paddle plug and fuse wired has the black wire, a red wire and a skinnier black wire.  the skinny black wire was supposed to go to the post marked GRD and i did that correct.  BUT,, what i also did, instead of putting the other black wire and the red wire to the BAT post, i stuck the black wire on the GRD post, and the red wire on the BAT post,, i checked my wires, no loose ends so i figured, i was ready to hook up the battery cable back up to the battery post,,, 

as soon as i touched the black battery post wire  to the battery post, thats when the sparks flew.  both at the positive battery post and at the ground post on the alternator,,,

as soon as that happened, i pulled it off, chinese new year was over.   i rechecked my wires, an realized that they were wrong, and moved the larger black wire over to the BAT post with the red wire from the battery were it belonged,,

now i dont know if that clarifies or confuses the matter, but that was the process that i used at the initial installation of the new alternator.  from there, i had the battery checked, and with the same tool the guy at the store said the battery wasnt getting but like 11.8 of charge, so, he couldnt tell if it was alt or wires. but for what ever reason, wasnt charging, so i replaced the VR,,,

again, I know nothing about electricty, solenoids, capacitors, etc. and in this case, it seemed a simple swap, but i messed up the wires, so I was at that point helpless due to lack of knowledge.  (that inability to think something out with no working knoweldge is very very frustrating)  also, i use the terms big black wire or red wire or skinny black wire, other than battery positve wire or battery negative wire. because frankly, i dont know exaclty what to call them, so i know that causes you the reader some confusion.  I know for sure,  probably 75 years or more of combined electrical  auto experience between Mark and Jason is something i can never hope to learn.  So my explanations of problems seem very strait forward to me,  but confusing to you guys, so I apologize for my lack of clarity, but i really do appreciate the discussions it generates, becaseu i do get someting out of it in the end., maybe not the entire understanding, but little pieces that i can carry forward on.  

[Kim K Kaiser]

I will certanly try to be more specific and direct in future.  A simple thread of one or two pages on battery and alt shouldnt turn to 6 pages due to my lack of clarity.   At 60 yo, im in the older man catagory w limited shelf life, that may be why my post get discombobugated,,getting old, thats my story and i m sticking to it .  Thanks again.  

[Kim K Kaiser]

Ok,  i got in the shipment from jason mart today,  made sure i had all the wires properly attched.  Turned on.

Checked battery while on.   13.43 an going up. But the gen lightvwas flicking. If i gave accelerator power, it would kick off, but then go back on.  So i cked it on the meter while running and it was at 17.xx.   im pretty sure, thats bad. So i turned it off.  

6 amp fuse is in. 

Thoughts?

[Kim K Kaiser]

Wat kinda tool was that?  Anything to mk it easier i will try

[Kim K Kaiser]

Sounds like a test i can run as a sub novice electrician.  Thanks

[Jason Edge]

Kim, Translation: Check the ground wire at the voltage regulator as seen in picture below. Perhaps you forgot to tighten the screw when installing the harness I sent. The voltage regulator end of the harness I sent has the 4 wire connector that plugs into base of voltage regulator and the seperate black wire with loop connector for ground. Just give the screw at black ground wire a good snug so it digs into the metal. Also check the GND ground connection on alternator which is the other end of this wire. 

[Kim K Kaiser]

Will do.   

[Jason Edge]

On The GEN indicator light, think of it this way: 
- Ignition on, but engine not running with altenator charging, 12 volts across the light circuit from ignion circuit makes it glow. 
- with ignition on and engine cranked and alternator charging, current is produced from other direction, cancelling each other out with net zero voltage.