For sale is the #1 frame cross member that has the vehicle VIN on it. Comes with the matching Arizona title in my name.  This is legal in Arizona, please check your state laws before putting this on your car.   

This is for a 1963 series 62 4 window sedan.  i will sign the title over to you so you can put the title into your name in your state.

400.00 plus shipping. 

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As the seller states:  Definitely check your state laws!  

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. I have sold titles and the door service tag with VIN, for documentation purposes only of course :-), but to buy a front cross member for $400 and pay to shipping and cut your old one out and weld another one in, seems like a lot of effort for a 1963 series 62 4 window sedan that will never match the engine VIN. I would hope the service tag does come with it. I know in NC and many other states they don't have a clue about the VIN on the frame & engine and you show them the service tag and they are good to go.  Regardless, most states have a method of obtaining a title for a car where it is lost. In NC you have to have the car inspected, and get Indemnity bond insurance for a couple of years, and of course they do a search on the VIN to make sure it is not stolen, etc. If this were an Eldorado and includes the service tag and preferable the matching engine, I guess it would make more sense. I am guessing you have sold these before Russ, so who knows... maybe I am way off the mark.

For a prospective buyer to think about:  While perhaps technically-legal in your state, doing this swap could be a slippery-slope type of thing.

How might doing this swap affect you car's resale value? You will/should need to disclose it in any future for sale ad. 

And, what about the legal ramifications of later selling your car to someone in a state where such modifications are ILLEGAL. 

I'm not trying to mess up the seller's listing. These are just some things that come to mind, after hearing a few horror stories about VIN swapping. 

The FBI doesn't take that kind of thing lightly. 

As in my post, check your local state laws. 

Not sure on NC, but Arizona will not even look past the screws on the service tag. AZ does not consider the service tag a VIN tag because of the screws. reason is it can be removed and replaced.  

Obtaining a title in AZ is extremely easy. I call a 3rd party vendor to come out to my house and inspect the VIN on the car. They do a search in the data base for the car. If it is not found, I get a bonded title. The title is free and clear and ready to sell to anyone. 

Other states are very lengthy and some states are impossible to obtain a title from a car without one. 

I have a 63 CDV and a 64 CDV that will be ready for the same fate. Cut the #1 cross member off and sell it with the title.  It is a way for some folks to put a car back onto the road that would not be able to otherwise. 

"I have a 63 CDV and a 64 CDV that will be ready for the same fate. Cut the #1 cross member off and sell it with the title.  It is a way for some folks to put a car back onto the road that would not be able to otherwise." 
Didn't you answer how they "would be able" to obtain the title in your 2nd paragraph. That would be the legal way to do it in NC and I would assume most states, except in NC there is no need for a 3rd party to get involved.
To be blunt, if you were going to go the deception route I would just stick the service plate on there and and point that to the inspector.  Nine out of Ten of these under 50 inspectors are not going to have a clue. I know of several service plates with titles I have sold over the last 2 decades that ended up going on newly titled cars.  Again, I stated I was selling them as "documentation" along with the title on my receipt, in my email and all correspondence (I am not going to be liable for misuse), but once they receive it, I have no control over what they try and can do with it. Also if the screws for the service plate makes someone nervous they could use rivets... again, I am not suggesting this, just offering an different solution. :-)



Jason, you selling the service tags and the title knowing full well what the intent is doesnt change the fact that it is shady when you call it "documentation".  Hoping to get an inspector who doesnt know the rules of how a VIN tag should be attached to a car is definably falling on the shady side of things.  I always direct an inspector to the VIN stamped on the frame. Why? Because it is the right thing to do. 

The state that I reside in, and that the car is titled in is perfectly fine with me selling the frame section and title.  I do believe I answered your question in the original post.  The purchaser needs to check their state laws. I can not and will not try to control others actions.  Like you said, I have no control over what they do. 

My post is perfectly legal, not deceptive and clear as to what is for sale.  But, you are going to nit pick everything I post, as usual. If you dont like it, take it down. 

Your post is fine. I am just sharing my experience in such matters.  Anything off these cars from tire tools to the car itself can be use in an illegal manner.  As you said, we can't control that. I did ask an old friend of mine in the NC DMV enforcement section (you remember I did work for DMV in their IT dept way back), about cutting out and welding in a section of another cars frame, so it would match a title they had so they could get the car titled... and, well you can guess the response after that laughter subsided.  No way in Hades, especially if there was any indications of alteration to the frame where the VIN is located, or knowledge of that fact.  My guy said the VIN goes with the car, not a piece of metal cut out and surgically replaced on it from another car.  He basically said in NC that is illegal.  He did say they do use other items such as dealer installed Service plates, and engine stamps to collaborate the VIN if in question. And... he admitted there are a lot of new guys and gals out there that would not know to look at the frame as most cars in the last 4 decades are up on the cowl or windshield.  

I decided to google it and first info I found states it could be a felony in certain instances: Click Here   Most states seem to consider it a major no-no. The only thing I could find for AZ was the fact they did change a law recently that allows someone restoring their car to remove the VIN then reinstall it... but it has to go back on the same car! I would be very careful advertising this offer of a Title and VIN section cut out of a frame. The more I searched the more I would steer clear of this. 

In Florida in 2006 a person came to my home to verify that I was the true owner of my 64 convert and that it was not a stolen car 

He did focus on the door jam tag that was not of much use at that time ( mine is broken and missing ) but I think the fact that my 64 was a one family owned Cadillac made him comfortable that the car was mine and all was well with it

He did not go much further in his investigation than that with me promising all was correct with the car ( no other ID numbers were checked by him ) 
Was a good while ago so not sure what they do regarding the verification in 2023 especially after the Covid- 19 years that changed procedures a lot regarding  all people interactions 


This subject brings up a lot of controversy every time it is mentioned. Let's face it, some cars are rusted so bad that they are completely changed. I'm in the process of restoring a 1965 mustang. Every single part can be bought new. So I'm in the process of replacing the rad cradle and all inner fenders. The only VIN stamps are on those inner fenders. One viewable with a fender in the other with one off. I have to cut out and weld back on the vins or restamp them on the new inner fenders. There is a a point where we need to acknowledge that this is done in a restoration and when it's done for theft. I've seen vins for sale at swap meets in Ontario Canada, I cant say if its legal or not but if I was to build a mustang from scratch (totally possible) I wouldn't hesitate to buy a vin and ownership. Theft on the other hand is quite illegal and wouldn't do that for anything. 

I also know a guy who built an old model T from scratch. He went to the DMV got a new (old) registration and registered the car. Perfectly legal from what I was told. As long as the car wasn't scraped or registered as stolen. 

Things that make you go hmmm?



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