big sigh!!!  well, i found the bleeders weren't  quite tight enough, so the last couple of runs through town i have and no brake leaks,  brakes feel ok, may have been i was so used to bad ones, didnt know what a good push was,, ANYWAY,, 

the starter....

since i replaced the starter back in november, i had the ignition switch go out,(wiring fried)  so for most of the last month, i have used the hot wire method.  seemed to do ok, just cant do it and go anywhere.  

i did notice when i used a generic 3 prong starter from parts store, i left it hooked up over night.  not on, and not in the accessory position,  the next day, the battery was dead.  charged and it started right up

So i just figured, until I get the replacement that fit with the 4 prongs, i would just hot wire, and undo the black post at night or when not in use.

so yesterday, i got all the parts in and hooked up the starter, and bammm,, fired right up,  took my rides, tested brakes,,,etc... came home parked it for an hour or two,, went back to go for another short ride, and i got that dreaded,, hard to turn over sound.  but it would turn over on about the third slow clunk and start.,, went for my ride, came back, parked and shut down for the night,, un did the black at battery.  

this morning, after checking for brake leaks, hooked it up, and it started right up like one would expect.  went for about a 20minute ride.,, came home,, went in side for about 20 minutes, came back out, and got that slow slow turn over.. it would nt start so i turned it off,, checked the battery, had appropriate cold charge volts,  waited about 45 more minutes. went out, tried it again,  tightened down the black,, got two slow turns and then it started,,took it for a ride,,, came back, test battery with engine on, and was well up in the 14's so from what i have read, it was doing what it was supposed to,

now I dont have ANY idea what to do now,  I'm fearful of turning off somewhere as it may not start.  but, i have found that after a long time, hours or so, and the battery undone, i can go out and it will do fine.  

i have been using gunk remover, and shooting water under engine cleaning the underside and engine over the last two weeks when i did nt have a working something to do on the car.  maybe some old wiring is bad? i just dont know,,could it be a fuse?  grounds are all there and tight, i mean if the starter is a non working part once the car is started, what else could cause this sort of hot start issue,, battery???  it works good cold, but not when its been on an running and then to follow up with a start.

I know yall are getting sick of my questions, but i have no were else to turn, you tube only covers so much and so much is on modern stuff...

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Have you replaced the battery cables?

Partly,  positive chged at time of starter in nov.  Afyer about an hour of sitting.  I went out, again.  Hookef up, turned key, bamm quick start.  Wemt for cruise, bout 15 min.   CameI home, parked, turned off.   Waited 5 minutes.  Tried to start,  got about three slow turns,  i turned off.  Will waitvanother hour, see what happenes

If it's just doing it when it's hot that sounds like to much timing advance. 

Ok.  If it matters, running petronix.  Is timing advance in the timing?  Do i need to go back and adjust timing again?

Followed up about an houe, re hookwd battery, tried to start w pedal on floor,   started right up.  

Initial timing is set at the distributor and harmonic balancer. Vacuum advance adds timing and mechanical advance adds timing. When you add all three that's total timing or advance. 

If you have to much initial timing at the distributor it will make starting the car hard as the engine isn't turning fast enough with the starter to overcome the explosion before the piston gets to the top of the stroke or cylinder. When you hear that woomp woomp woomp that's the starter trying to overcome the pressure in the engine from the spark plug firing to soon. The engine tries to go backwards against the starter.  

It does sound like a grounding problem. When the connections are cold they have contact when warm they have less. Also water could make the current go the wrong way.

My advise is to replace the grounding wires on your car. Most important are the one between the starter/engine and the frame and the one between the frame and the battery. Make sure the contact surface area is clean and properly greased (I use a copper based contact grease).

The above advise has been given before, several times. Does look like you didn't heed it. Maybe you could do it this time?

There is no shortcut on this. You need to get below the car and replace the grounding cables. All of them.

i have at minimun, cleaned an reset the frame to starter when the starter was put in, battery post have all been cleaned.  battery is less than 4 months old.  

working on the battery ground today,  my question is at this point,  does it have to be those open copper straps or can a closed ground be used of the right gauge,?

reason i ask, the ground on the battery to the frame one, is fused into the loop that hooks to the frame.,  i dont see a way with the modern battery attachments to fuse that in to the new loop,, there for, if a new wire would be sufficient and of what gauge.. 

same for frame to starter,, is the old strap required, or can a coated wire be used and what gauge,, i will check book to see if gauge is listed as well.

I have the very large frame to back of engine at battery ground strap like the one seen below in excellent condition for $15 and can ship 2 to 3 day priority for $7 for a total of $22. As I indicated on my very first reply regarding your cranking issues, this is going to be the main ground strap you want to look at regarding cranking issues after the battery negative ground to frame.
As indicated in the shop manual this is a 4 gauge connection and should not be replaced with a smaller wire. My questions, is given the fact there are nice original ground straps such as the one seen below available why would you want to replace with some other type wire. I am definitely repeating myself for the 4th, 5th, maybe 6th time at this point, but inspect your frame to back of engine ground strap. If it looks compromised in any way I have VG used ones, and am sure Russ and others will have them.

i have checked those connections when replacing starter a while back, dont see anything unusual.

no reason why one over the other, just a question, if it did or did not make a difference.  

the other reason why on the battery ground,is it is tied into the loop with the cable and crimped and intermeshed with the loop that attaches to the frame, the new battery cable, at the frame loop is one piece,  that is why i was asking about that one, seemed like crunching the end of the open strap in to some sort of loop to attach to the frame would not work very well..

I don't follow what you mean by tied into a loop. Battery ground from the factory goes from battery to the frame under the battery with short jumper harness to the firewall. If using an aftermarket battery cable (e.g. side bolt) with the wire at the top you simply need to run a jumper wire same gauge or bigger  to connect to the radiator support. It doesn't have to be down to the same location, just to ground the radiator support since this provides a direct ground to all components such as the voltage regulators, horns, horn relay, etc, connected to the radiator support. 

See braided ground wire wire to radiator support below. Note. Most of the car grounds can be seen on our Help page under - Ground Strap Locations.

My cables existing as attached,   new cable above

Completed re placing negatuve cable, ran 8 gauge wire from the offshhot wire from the battery cable, attached to were the other strap wire was previuosly attached like in Jasons picture of coonnectiions.  Car started fine.  Tikk for about ten mike run.   Pulled in, turned off. Trued to start.... same as prior.  Turns over but wont start.  I give it about three turn overs and leave it.   Instead of undoing negatuve cable, i am going to see iff battery dies, as it has in past.  

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