And another:
Aaron when running the Edelbrock 1406 750 cfm with the larger butterflies (valve body blades), , the idea of a spacer perhaps preventing the need to bevel and port out the front primary intake ports something I had thought about.
Just a quick side note first: Tony the front "barrels" are the primaries that have the smaller ports, and the rear "barrels" are the secondaries that opens when the front primaries are almost fully open. The front smaller ports on the intakes are what I call the primary ports and the rear larger ones are the secondary ports. I use this to match the name of the Carb nomenclature.
Aaron, this is the problem if you don't at least bevel when using the 750 with larger butterflies (even if the raised spacer prevents from hitting): if you don't at least bevel it out you will be drawing the air/fuel down and it will hit a hard ridge due to the narrow front intake primaries. You need to at least bevel it out. You can see the results of just beveling it in my Carb Intake project thread (Click Here to go to it) in the Help Pages, but when I rebuilt the engine last year I had the machine shop to port the front intake primaries out more and to polish both ports to hopefully increase the air/fuel delivery from the square bore Edelbrock to the Cadiillac Intake which is sort of a cross between a square bore and spread bore since the rear secondaries are larger than the front primaries but not Huge like on the Quadrajets.
Advantages of the Edelbrock 1411 750cfm vs Original Carbs:
#1 with a bullet: POWER! I had run a couple of rebuilt Carter AFB's on my 64 CDV early on, and they were ok with mediocre performance (I come from a hot rodding background), but was never satisfied not to mention the choke was tough to set, and of course the choke tube issues. I posted several videos driving the car after Edelbrock Carb install, but before the engine rebuild, and you could punch it at 50 and be at 80 in like not time. The 750 just made a world of difference in terms of sheer fuel delivery and power when I needed it.
Other advantages were the elimination of the manual choke and problematic choke tube, better fuel efficiency over the original carbs (as long as I laid off the gas pedal), and other than the beveling of the intake, a bolt and go setup where the throttle linkage was the same, as was the fuel line (Carter AFB style), and with the Edelbrock design very similar to the Carter AFB with air breather adaptor rings and 3/8" spacer/insulator it looks stock until I take the air breather off.
Disadvantages of Edelbrock vs Original: not many. You will need to get creative to connect the Turbo Hydramatic kickdown switch (not sure about TV Rod) and the idle speed up control for AC equipped cars. You also need to use adaptor rings to use the stock air filter housing, and address the heat through the intake by blocking passages. I've yet to install the kick down switch, or idle up speed control, but with the "kick in the pants" power I have never ever felt under power when I needed a "passing gear", and as you all know the A/C is a not-yet-started project for me so these two items have not matter. The sheer power boost, and the fact I am running a new (well it was new then) carb instead of haggling with trying to rebuild a carb with 50 year old corroded and fatigued parts just makes it a better option for me.
- Advantages of Edelbrock 1411 750 cfm over the 1406 600 cfm --> Power
- Advantages of Edelbrock 1406 600 cfm over the 1411 750 cfm -> Fuel Efficiency and no need to bore out/port front intake primaries (but it still might give you some performance gains since Edelbrock is a square bore carb.
Below you will see the final result of the intake during recent rebuild:
SUMMARY INFO ADDED AUGUST 18, 2013:
When I first did my intake and carb project, I only blocked the 2 internal choke tube end openings and the 2 top gutter openings. I did not initially block the center cylinder head to intake exhaust channel.
I blocked the 4 openings to the center exhaust channel since:
1) the Edelbrock 1406/1411 has the electric choke and did not need the choke tube to feed the hot air to a mechanical choke
2) the center choke tube often rots & cracks allowing fire hot gases out the choke tube ends which can be dangerous (so both ends of the choke tube were blocked)
3) The new Edelbrock Design did not need the blast of exhaust gas directly underneath the carb via the gutter (so those two gutter holes were blocked)
NOTE: When originally set up, I was also running dual exhaust and did not have the heat riser, which on cold start-up shuts off the exhaust flow out on the left driver side exhaust manifold forcing hot gases across the intake channel for faster engine fuel/air heat-up. Even so, you still get unforced bypass exhaust gases flowing across that channel as I noticed my paint continuing to burn off in this area. I measured the temps with a heat gun and was still getting a 300+ degree reading across the center port . I have posted video showing the difference in temps on the intake with heat riser removed but with the center cylinder head to intake channel still open. Just from the bypass gases the center is about 305 degrees vs the 195 degrees on the ends of the intake. Here is a link to the video: https://6364cadillac.ning.com/video/1964-cadillac-intake-heat-temps
May 2012 Upgrades:- Intake was ported out as seen in last picture above to make the front m primaries better match the venturi of the Edelbrock 750 cfm
- Original Exhaust was installed, however, the butterfly was removed from heat riser and center exhaust port between the cylinder head and intake manifold was blocked using heavy guage galvanized roofing steel because I wanted to further reduce the heat on the center exhaust channel across intake as seen in previous video link. To be able to do that and run stock exhaust I had the butterfly removed from my heat riser on the stock single pipe exhaust I am now running.
UPDATE Sept 2023: if you want something more professional than my fabricated plates, Olson Gaskets sells an intake gasket with the block-off plate built in. Click Here to go to their website. GGasket sets are about $50 the last time I checked.
NOTE!: If you are running the stock set-up with the heat riser intact and functioning you cannot block the cylinder head to intake center exhaust port as seen above. If you do, your left exhaust will be blocked and engine will run like crap on startup until heat riser opens.
SUMMARY: If you are running a 1406 or 1411 you need to block the ends of the heat choke tube since you are not using it and leaving it open even if you have a solid internal tube, could eventually lead to problems if it ever cracks or corrodes open exposing the both ends to fire hot gases. You also want to close the top gutter holes to prevent those same hot gases from hitting the carb insulator. IF, and a big IF, you do not plan to use the heat riser you can block the center cylinder head to intake channel further reducing the temps on center of intake beneath carb.
Update 11/26/16 regarding carb to original Air Cleaner Adaptor:
Since the top of the Edelbrock is 5 1/8” wide and the original air cleaner housing is about 4 3/16” to fit the Rochester 4GC or Carter AFB you will need some sort of adaptor to use the original air cleaner.
My First Solution - The Universal kit I first used was OK, but the rings were flimsy and the cleaner just sat loosely in the funnel formed by the adaptor rings. Thus, you did not have a good seal and I am sure some outside air was probably sucked in. It gave me a total effective raised height of 7/8” above the carb. (Details are on this link: https://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blogs/edelbrock-carb-to-air-... )
Second/Better Solution: The adaptor Russ Austin is selling is a much better adaptor. Very solid. It raises the air cleaner 1 3/16”... which just clears the hood if using a 3/8” intake to carb spacer. If you go any higher the air cleaner will probably hit to hood.
Rejetting:
Once you get your carb set up you then my want to adjust jetting to fine tune your particular setting.
On my 1964 429 with the 1411, I ended up going with the .073 x .042 for 4% richer mixture on both cruise and power mode.
Calibration Kits
You can get calibration kits from Edelbrock that has an assortment of metering rods, jets, and step-up springs.
The kit tailored for the Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb is the 1487 kit.
The kit tailored for the Edelbrock 1411 750cfm carb is the 1489 kit.
Below is a picture of the 1489 kit which I used:
Comment
Tyler, The stainless plates I used are larger than the diameter of the opening and with the intake torqued down to the cylinder head it is not going anywhere.
Keep in mind, that my passage was blocked to keep the 300+ degree temps from the base of the newer Edelbrock Carb. The original Carter AFB and Rochester 4GC with the insulator were designed for the additional heat during warm up with the heat riser closed. I am not sure what your application is but if you are using the stock carbs I would not block any of the passages.
Tyler, it has been a while since I did it but I drilled out the internal choke and tapped threads at both ends of the tube opening and filled it with a bolt. I did the same for the top gutter channel but cut the top of the head bolts off flush. If you are not using a heat riser, or removing the butterfly you can simply block it off a the cylinder head to intake at the center gasket opening.
I inserted a picture and added a bit more text to the bottom of my original post back up top. I would check out the picture and consider if you want to remove the choke tube (or butterfly) and just block the channel:
May 2012 Upgrades:- Intake was ported out as seen in last picture above to make the front m primaries better match the venturi of the Edelbrock 750 cfm
- Original Exhaust was installed, however, the butterfly was removed from heat riser and center exhaust port between the cylinder head and intake manifold was blocked using heavy guage galvanized roofing steel because I wanted to further reduce the heat on the center exhaust channel across intake as seen in previous video link. To be able to do that and run stock exhaust I had the butterfly removed from my heat riser on the stock single pipe exhaust I am now running.
NOTE!: If you are running the stock set-up with the heat riser intact and functioning you cannot block the cylinder head to intake center exhaust port as seen above. If you do, your left exhaust will be blocked and engine will run like crap on startup until heat riser opens.
It's just called 1949-1976 Cadillac Blue engine paint and was used 1949 to 1976. The most accurate reproduction is by Bill Hirsch. Click Here for a listing the colors of different engine components: Click Here You will find a website link and phone # for Hirsch Automotive at bottom of the article.
I drilled out the rotted internal choke tube. I ended up blocking the center exhaust port between the cylinder heads and intake anyway, so I could have left it alone.
I'm looking at the Edelbrock E-Street TB setup. The cost is high, but I definitely like the reliability and the ability to tune an EFI. I'm just evaluating my fuel supply options right now. There is a remote sump option but I'm not sure I want to look at that in my engine compartment, so I'm currently looking at aftermarket fuel tank options. If it proves to be too difficult to find the parts I want, I may scrap the idea and go with a carb swap. that being said, if I do decide on a carb, it would be a Holley, not an Edelbrock, so I would still make my own build thread to track progress.
I like this Lokar idea! I'm actually going a whole different direction than the rest of you and installing fuel injection, so I like the idea of an aftermarket switch that allows me to mount in different locations. I will take lots of pictures and create a thread for this as I move forward so you can all see how it turns out
Mr. Humble,
You will find a message string at:
http://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=6543066%3ABlogPo...
which addresses after-market solutions to the kick-down switch.
I used the Lokar kit; a picture of it installed at the carburetor is in the string.
http://www.lokar.com/product-pgs/throttlecables-kickdowns/tc-kd-pgs...
HTH
Chris
I have yet to install it. I think some others have come up with a bracket. I saved some notes from the old 63/64 site hosted by Multiply but have not reloaded it. I plan to install a kickdown switch at some point and updated the entire article. If someone has installed the bracket please feel free to post. Pictures of course are helpful.
I have been reading through the various posts as I research to do this to my car, but I don't see any posts on the installation of the elect kick-down for the turbo hydromatic trans. Is there some info on this that I just missed, or has this not been fully addressed by anyone yet?
You will not have a choke to heat up via the choke tube, so the super hot blast of exhaust gas is not going to assist with that. 2) The hot exhaust gas (See page 8.3 in 1964 Shhop Manual under exhaust) is forced across the intake via the closed heat riser to heat up the air/fuel mixture in the intake to speed up engine warm up and for optimal cold startup performance with the original Carter AFB or Rochester 4GC.
With that in mind, if you are running the original heat-riser, choke-tube set AND (this is a big AND), you have a solid, crack free choke tube AND you have an insulator beneath the Edelbrock and not just plopping it directly down on the fire hot intake, you are PROBABLY OK.
I say probably, be cause even with my heat riser removed, and running dual exhaust, my center port, unblocked was still reaching 300 degrees. Click Here to see the video. If I had the original heat riser set-up I could easily see the temps getting up to 400 to 500 degree at crankup with the heat riser closed and forcing the gases across that channel. (I would love to see someone take a ready with a heat gun on an original setup car to see what the temps actually were!).
I also say probably, because even with my 3/8" insulator/spacer, AND again without the heat riser, BUT with the center exhaust cylinder head to intake ports unblocked, my engine would tend to try to vapor lock on very hot days here in the south, sitting in down town stop-light to stop-light traffic. With my engine rebuild I also blocked that center port completely and temps are not a pleasant 190 degrees beneath the carb.
Your mechanic is just taking the easy way out. I would ask him (or perhaps you should) contact Eldebrock and ask what they recommend for old style engines that had forced exhaust gas under the car during crank up.
I set mine with the engine analyzer looking at rpm per Edelbrock instructions page of owners manual:
1. Fully warm engine and ensure choke is fully open.
2. Air cleaner in place.
3. Set desired speed with the air screw (idle speed screw on side).
4. Adjust the IMS on ONE side to get the maximum possible RPM.
Do not go rich beyond the maximum speed point.
5. If the above changed the idle speed more than 40 RPM, then readjust the speed.
6. Adjust the side OPPOSITE of that in Step 4 to get maximum RPM.
7. Reset the speed.
8. Carefully trim each IMS to again get the maximum idle RPM.
9. Go leaner just enough to get a 20 RPM drop in speed.
10. Reset the speed to the desired RPM.
11. This is a Lean-Best Idle Set. Setting richer than this will not
improve idle quality or performance, but could tend to foul plugs.
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