And another:
Aaron when running the Edelbrock 1406 750 cfm with the larger butterflies (valve body blades), , the idea of a spacer perhaps preventing the need to bevel and port out the front primary intake ports something I had thought about.
Just a quick side note first: Tony the front "barrels" are the primaries that have the smaller ports, and the rear "barrels" are the secondaries that opens when the front primaries are almost fully open. The front smaller ports on the intakes are what I call the primary ports and the rear larger ones are the secondary ports. I use this to match the name of the Carb nomenclature.
Aaron, this is the problem if you don't at least bevel when using the 750 with larger butterflies (even if the raised spacer prevents from hitting): if you don't at least bevel it out you will be drawing the air/fuel down and it will hit a hard ridge due to the narrow front intake primaries. You need to at least bevel it out. You can see the results of just beveling it in my Carb Intake project thread (Click Here to go to it) in the Help Pages, but when I rebuilt the engine last year I had the machine shop to port the front intake primaries out more and to polish both ports to hopefully increase the air/fuel delivery from the square bore Edelbrock to the Cadiillac Intake which is sort of a cross between a square bore and spread bore since the rear secondaries are larger than the front primaries but not Huge like on the Quadrajets.
Advantages of the Edelbrock 1411 750cfm vs Original Carbs:
#1 with a bullet: POWER! I had run a couple of rebuilt Carter AFB's on my 64 CDV early on, and they were ok with mediocre performance (I come from a hot rodding background), but was never satisfied not to mention the choke was tough to set, and of course the choke tube issues. I posted several videos driving the car after Edelbrock Carb install, but before the engine rebuild, and you could punch it at 50 and be at 80 in like not time. The 750 just made a world of difference in terms of sheer fuel delivery and power when I needed it.
Other advantages were the elimination of the manual choke and problematic choke tube, better fuel efficiency over the original carbs (as long as I laid off the gas pedal), and other than the beveling of the intake, a bolt and go setup where the throttle linkage was the same, as was the fuel line (Carter AFB style), and with the Edelbrock design very similar to the Carter AFB with air breather adaptor rings and 3/8" spacer/insulator it looks stock until I take the air breather off.
Disadvantages of Edelbrock vs Original: not many. You will need to get creative to connect the Turbo Hydramatic kickdown switch (not sure about TV Rod) and the idle speed up control for AC equipped cars. You also need to use adaptor rings to use the stock air filter housing, and address the heat through the intake by blocking passages. I've yet to install the kick down switch, or idle up speed control, but with the "kick in the pants" power I have never ever felt under power when I needed a "passing gear", and as you all know the A/C is a not-yet-started project for me so these two items have not matter. The sheer power boost, and the fact I am running a new (well it was new then) carb instead of haggling with trying to rebuild a carb with 50 year old corroded and fatigued parts just makes it a better option for me.
- Advantages of Edelbrock 1411 750 cfm over the 1406 600 cfm --> Power
- Advantages of Edelbrock 1406 600 cfm over the 1411 750 cfm -> Fuel Efficiency and no need to bore out/port front intake primaries (but it still might give you some performance gains since Edelbrock is a square bore carb.
Below you will see the final result of the intake during recent rebuild:
SUMMARY INFO ADDED AUGUST 18, 2013:
When I first did my intake and carb project, I only blocked the 2 internal choke tube end openings and the 2 top gutter openings. I did not initially block the center cylinder head to intake exhaust channel.
I blocked the 4 openings to the center exhaust channel since:
1) the Edelbrock 1406/1411 has the electric choke and did not need the choke tube to feed the hot air to a mechanical choke
2) the center choke tube often rots & cracks allowing fire hot gases out the choke tube ends which can be dangerous (so both ends of the choke tube were blocked)
3) The new Edelbrock Design did not need the blast of exhaust gas directly underneath the carb via the gutter (so those two gutter holes were blocked)
NOTE: When originally set up, I was also running dual exhaust and did not have the heat riser, which on cold start-up shuts off the exhaust flow out on the left driver side exhaust manifold forcing hot gases across the intake channel for faster engine fuel/air heat-up. Even so, you still get unforced bypass exhaust gases flowing across that channel as I noticed my paint continuing to burn off in this area. I measured the temps with a heat gun and was still getting a 300+ degree reading across the center port . I have posted video showing the difference in temps on the intake with heat riser removed but with the center cylinder head to intake channel still open. Just from the bypass gases the center is about 305 degrees vs the 195 degrees on the ends of the intake. Here is a link to the video: https://6364cadillac.ning.com/video/1964-cadillac-intake-heat-temps
May 2012 Upgrades:- Intake was ported out as seen in last picture above to make the front m primaries better match the venturi of the Edelbrock 750 cfm
- Original Exhaust was installed, however, the butterfly was removed from heat riser and center exhaust port between the cylinder head and intake manifold was blocked using heavy guage galvanized roofing steel because I wanted to further reduce the heat on the center exhaust channel across intake as seen in previous video link. To be able to do that and run stock exhaust I had the butterfly removed from my heat riser on the stock single pipe exhaust I am now running.
UPDATE Sept 2023: if you want something more professional than my fabricated plates, Olson Gaskets sells an intake gasket with the block-off plate built in. Click Here to go to their website. GGasket sets are about $50 the last time I checked.
NOTE!: If you are running the stock set-up with the heat riser intact and functioning you cannot block the cylinder head to intake center exhaust port as seen above. If you do, your left exhaust will be blocked and engine will run like crap on startup until heat riser opens.
SUMMARY: If you are running a 1406 or 1411 you need to block the ends of the heat choke tube since you are not using it and leaving it open even if you have a solid internal tube, could eventually lead to problems if it ever cracks or corrodes open exposing the both ends to fire hot gases. You also want to close the top gutter holes to prevent those same hot gases from hitting the carb insulator. IF, and a big IF, you do not plan to use the heat riser you can block the center cylinder head to intake channel further reducing the temps on center of intake beneath carb.
Update 11/26/16 regarding carb to original Air Cleaner Adaptor:
Since the top of the Edelbrock is 5 1/8” wide and the original air cleaner housing is about 4 3/16” to fit the Rochester 4GC or Carter AFB you will need some sort of adaptor to use the original air cleaner.
My First Solution - The Universal kit I first used was OK, but the rings were flimsy and the cleaner just sat loosely in the funnel formed by the adaptor rings. Thus, you did not have a good seal and I am sure some outside air was probably sucked in. It gave me a total effective raised height of 7/8” above the carb. (Details are on this link: https://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blogs/edelbrock-carb-to-air-... )
Second/Better Solution: The adaptor Russ Austin is selling is a much better adaptor. Very solid. It raises the air cleaner 1 3/16”... which just clears the hood if using a 3/8” intake to carb spacer. If you go any higher the air cleaner will probably hit to hood.
Rejetting:
Once you get your carb set up you then my want to adjust jetting to fine tune your particular setting.
On my 1964 429 with the 1411, I ended up going with the .073 x .042 for 4% richer mixture on both cruise and power mode.
Calibration Kits
You can get calibration kits from Edelbrock that has an assortment of metering rods, jets, and step-up springs.
The kit tailored for the Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb is the 1487 kit.
The kit tailored for the Edelbrock 1411 750cfm carb is the 1489 kit.
Below is a picture of the 1489 kit which I used:
Comment
Thomas, You want to use a thick metal plate that is not going to get sucked into the exhaust port. This is an outlet so at works you debris, etc in the exhaust systems. Not good. Main thing is to address the heat riser valve ---> remove butterfly, install spacer, run straight duals out without the Y pipe, etc. but you don't want that port blocked when the heat riser is shut on cold start up. That would be the time a great amount of force would be exerted against the LH side blocked port. With the heat riser butterfly not closed (however you resolve to do that) you should only have minor pressure against the metal plate as the exhaust gases will exit the free flowing exhaust on LH side with butterfly gone.
Just to add, if you want something more professional than my fabricated plates, Olson Gaskets sells an intake gasket with the block-off plate built in. Click Here to go to their website.
This may come off as a dumb question, if you seal off the exhaust ports on the head that goes to the intake to block the heat off, is there any possible damage that could happen to the head or anything in the head(valve, rockers, springs) if any of that materials being used creeps it way down further than it needs to be? Where does that port lead to? Again, sorry for a strange question, just trying to learn as much as possible and get this car back on the road after sitting 30 years!
"so the 2 blocking plates weren't fixed in the cylinder head? ", No. they were just metal plates meant to block the fire hot bypass gas from flowing thru from one side to the other. I am not sure how one would put them "in" the cylinder head. This is a cheap man's version of the Olsen's gaskets that already have the metal plate in the gasket. I simply cut two small plates from galvanized steel roofing just wider than the opening, tacked them up there, laid the gasket over them and sealed it up.
"what epoxy did you use for the blocking of the exhaust ports in the cylinder head?" --> I think just think a bit of that copper head gasket spray. Just something to hold it in place until I could get the gasket and intake on, which wasn't much.
I was searching for something else today and ran across this short article about heat soak and the Edelbrock Carbs: http://www.edelblog.com/tech-tips/resolving-heat-soak. This is just referencing the heat soak in general, not to mention the huge heat up you would have with the original design with our 63/64 Cadillac heat riser/center intake exhaust channel system of pushing hot exhaust gas across the center intake port at cold start up, or the bypass gas that still heats the center channel up to over 300 degrees if the center port is not blocked. I block the ports AND use the 3/8" Trans-Dapt TRD-2446 0.375 insulator spacer. There is also the physics of better air/fuel mixing and distribution by getting the carb up a bit. A 1" to 2" spacer would, in theory, boost performance.... but you have the height issue if running the stock air breather. I usually don't post to this thread as it is already so long winded, but do hope to someday rewrite and consolidate everything!
Tony, What type of insulator are you using? If using the stock intake to carb insulator then YES you need to use the shim or something to protect the carb! As noted these channels circled in green below allow exhaust gases up to the bottom of the carb if intake exhaust channels are open.
If you are using the Trans-Dapt TRD-2446 insulator I am using (pictured below) or any of the Edelbrock recommended insulators you do not have that issue since there is no direct open channel beneath the carb.
The main thing here to consider is that the original Carter AFB and Rochester 4GC were designed to utilize additional heat at the front base of the carburetor near the front primaries at cold startup. With the heat riser closed, hot exhaust gasses were forced across the center intake exhaust channel, and up into an exhaust gutter at the front top of the intake carb mounting platform. And, a critical part of this is the fact that the intake to carb insulator had a channel above the intake exhaust gutter to allow the exhaust heat up to the front carb base.
The BIG difference in the two carbs was the fact the Rochester had a separate steel bottom throttle body, where as the Carter had an aluminum throttle body that was an integral part of the main carb assembly. To protect the aluminum bottom of the Carter AFB a Stainless shim was used.
If you are using an aftermarket carburetor such as the Edelbrock you DO NOT want to use the stock insulator, especially, if you have not blocked the exhaust gases, as it will allow the extreme heat right up next to the carb through that channel. There are many aftermarket spacers for the popular carbs such as the Edelbrock. The 3/8" Trans-Dapt TRD-2446 works well for me but there are many others!
Finally, since we have recently discussed the Carter AFB Spoil Port (holes drilled to force the reinstallation of the stainless steel shim), the insulator, and the shim I thought I would post some pictures that may make it easier to understand what is going on:
The first pictures shows the separate steel Rochester 4GC throttle body. It was a stout steel base and did not need the stainless steel shim as it was already steel:
The next picture shows the bottom of the Carter AFB with the spoil ports drilled just in front of the from primaries. Note, that the throttle body with throttle valves is aluminum.
The next pictures shows the Intake to Carb insulator without the required shim.
NOTE the exposed idle spoil ports, but more importantly consider that in the stock setup, hot corrosive exhaust gases will enter the exhaust channel in center of intake, go up through the intake gutter holes, go through the gutter and up to and against the aluminum base of the carb. THIS WAS THE REASON FOR THE STAINLESS SHIM!
Now, lets back up and put the stainless steel shim on the carb. Note the idle spoil ports are blocked, but more importantly you have provided a shield against the aluminum throttle body base:
And, finally see the insulator now installed next to the shim. This still allows the cold startup exhaust heat to enter the channel and go up next to the front base of the carb, but the carb is not subject to the intense corrosive properties of the exhaust gases.
Metal is a poor insulator against heat. The purpose of the shim was to help prevent long term corrosion of the base of the Carter AFB from exhaust gases and really nothing to do with it's insulation value. Also, it was not used on the Rochester 4GC. The stock bakelite intake to carb spacer with PCV nipple would have provided considerable insulation and I am not sure why Cadillac felt the need to use the shim but they did. They not only used it, they drilled spoil ports into the bottom of the Carter AFB so they would not idle with out it, requiring the Cadillac Service Centers to reinstall it.
As far as Edelbrock applications, running a decent insulator/spacer like Trans-Dapt TRD-2446 0.375 " (3/8") I am using should be fine. Raising the carb a bit off the intake will provide better air/fuel mixing and dispersion. As noted in my write-up, even if you remove the heat riser, which forces exhaust gases from LH to RH side of engine across intake and under carb, your intake manifold will still heat up to 300 degrees or more across the center from the bypass exhaust.
While the insulator will absorb a lot of that heat, you also have the choke tube that runs through it. If it breaks, then you have a direct exit out the bottom of the intake which is a fire hazard not to mention it will give you a nice exhaust leak sound. When I started my Edelbrock project I thought I could simply remove the heat riser, block the top 2 gutter ports, and the choke tube ends and be done with it. Per the video I previously posted, (Click Here to check it out), it was heating up to 300+ degrees on the intake directly below the carb.... not good. So, I blocked the exhaust port between the heads and the intake. That stopped any exhaust gas or extreme heat from going under the carb. I could have just as easily just blocked at the head/intake port to start with, but as they say you live you learn.
My recommendations are as follows if running an Edelbrock:
- use a spacer/insulator - get it off the intake and provide some insulation. The Trans-Dapt TRD-2446 0.375 " (3/8") insulator spacer is a good one to use and lifts the car up off the intake about the same amount as the stock intake to carb insulator.
- remove the butterfly from the heat riser, or replace heat riser with a spacer AND block the exhaust port between intake and cylinder head. Plugging the top gutter holes and choke end is optional if blocking at the intake/head junction. I
- If it makes you feel better use a Carter AFB shim. (I just pulled a very nice one and will sell it for $15.) BUT NOTE: the front primary openings will be too small for the 750 CFM Edelbrock 1411. I looked at the one I pulled closely today and they have smaller front primaries to match the intake. The front butterflies on the 1411 will be too big.
As Tony says, Enjoy.
Tony, no! He already has the insulator spacer I used beneath the carb and his exhaust channel is blocked. If you have absolutely nothing between carb and intake and you do not have the exhaust channel blocked, then sure, it might help, but again the shim was designed specifically for the Carter AFB with the Spoil ports. Also, for the 1411 with the larger primaries it might not even fit! Tony, you periodically have mentioned using the Carter AFB shim on the Edelbrock. And ... I have to go back and explain that it is not needed with the Edelbrock. I have been running an Edelbrock for what 15 years and have never used a shim as it is not for my carburetor. Hopefully it will sink in this time around.
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